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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gadri a
national consensus began to crystallize
in Britain over the last few weeks that
Tony Blair has become either mad or bad
and in either case dangerous to know it
began with his Bloomberg speech a couple
of months ago actually in which he
appeared to postulate a kind of
orwellian NeverEnding war between West
and East and then was that strange
appearance as if from the war zone as
Iraq fell apart under an advancing
alqaeda attack in which he absolved
himself and President Bush of all blame
and instead called for us to launch yet
another War this time against both Iraq
and Syria taken together with a
catastrophic situation being faced by
the Palestinian people under seat in
Gaza under lockdown in the West Bank and
under illegal annexation in Jerusalem it
just this all became too much for people
on the right as well on the left from
the mayor of London The Daily Mail and
the Daily Telegraph to well people like
us it's time for BL to go at least as a
so-called Middle East peace Envoy so
said thousands of people in just the
first few hours of a new petition at
sa.org addressed to the leaders of the
quartet the UN the EU the US and Russia
reflecting the consensus it is headed up
by both Tor Grande
and leftwing luminaries preeminent
amongst the latter Professor Nom Chomsky
and our first guest former conservative
government Minister and distinguished
expert on the Middle East chrisen blunt
M he was on his way to a very important
engagement at London's Guild Hall but we
squeezed them in before we'd even
finished making the set listen to
this chrisen blunt this uh sudden
apparently sudden crystallization
across the political spectrum that I
talked about in the introduction what do
you think is the approximate cause of
that well I think there are there are
lots of causes and the different
signatures to your uh letter uh all have
given slightly different perspectives in
their in their own explanations in the
press release that accompanied uh this
the statement uh and for some people
it's simply that you know he was the
whole businessman 2003 and the case made
to Parliament uh and how that's all
become uh very badly uh unpicked uh as
time has gone on for some people that
may was an incredible figure from once
that was established uh for me actually
it's rather different uh my view is that
uh regardless of the merits of the 2003
presentation and the decision and the
consequences it because of it uh I think
as he left office he wanted kind of to
find a role that would enable him to
make up some of the uh damage that had
been done by his policy at some level
now he would never present it like that
but I was very surprised uh to be able
to go to Downing Street to have a a
meeting with Tony Blair with the all
party Palestine group shortly before he
left office and he was very seriously
engaged in the Palestine issue and then
when he accepted this appointment as a
quarter Envoy I thought this presented
an opportunity um empowered by the
quartet um and if he had been able to to
play a political and an economic role
then he would have been a very powerful
figure to bring uh the parties uh
together but of course almost within
weeks the Bush Administration had made
it perfectly clear politics was for them
and wasn't for him um which simply left
him with this economic role which he has
uh energetically pursued but now the
politics has collapsed again uh frankly
that economic role is really redundant
because we're never going to repair the
economy of Palestine because seven years
I mean there've been seven fat years for
Mr Blair which is another question but
they've been very lean indeed years for
the Palestinian people the Gaza Siege
continues the people in Gaza living on
the brink of starvation Mr Blair's been
117 times he boasts to the area but only
one time to Gaza the lockdown as we
speak in the West Bank Mass arrests
killings on a daily basis and of course
Jerusalem going through it own
particular uh uh Calvary uh the uh the
Palestinians overwhelmingly say that he
was from the beginning in the pockets of
the is that was always going to be the
problem given the policy positions he
had taken as prime minister and he was
going to have to establish credibility
that he was actually uh properly
empowered Envoy he was going to listen
fairly to both sides and quite quickly
he became as you say completely focused
on the West Bank and just on economic
issues and therefore engag just with the
Palestinian Authority and not the whole
wide wide uh political representation of
Palestine which as we know goes much
further than the the parties's making up
the authority and wasn't maybe the last
straw that broke the camels back for
many people the disaster that is now
overcoming Iraq uh whatever view one
took on the war we took different uh
views uh manifestly it has all gone
badly wrong when Al-Qaeda are in control
of half the country and uh and Shiite
militias are tooling up in the other
half clearly this is not what uh people
thought was the objective of the western
allies who went into that war well
obviously it has turned out to be a
catastrophe it was an utter disaster
with the Insurgency That Then followed
uh awful decisions made uh to disarm the
Iraqi Army uh which would have been a uh
a a force for stability uh in Iraq and
then you just put a whole lot of
unemployed officers and soldiers uh on
the streets and wondered why it uh it
went sour even quicker than it might
otherwise have done even if you had been
able to control the Shia Sunni Kur
tensions within uh Iraq and so here we
are 10 years later and Iraq as an entity
is pretty much a busted flush now and we
need to face up to the realities of new
go politics there and actually create
entities that are going to have the
support of their populations and it's
going to mean some ugly choices in terms
of population movements and the rest
that are going to look a bit like the
partition of India uh Mr Blair famously
became a Roman Catholic but penitence
doesn't seem to be anywhere in his uh
religious vocabulary he was out fighting
as the state in Iraq was collapsing
seeing not only that it wasn't my fault
uh but that we we will have to uh go in
again did that kind of gung-ho uh
attitude from him surprise you uh it
didn't surprised me but it may it sounds
pretty desperate now I mean all the
evidence around is that the approach
that uh the bush and Blair
administrations took in
20023 and obviously the consideration of
the attack on Iraq and then the attack
on Iraq has turned out to be have
utterly disastrous uh consequences we've
very badly mishandled the relationship
ship with Iran for for example I was in
the House of Commons and as you gently
pointed out I did vote for the war in
2003 but I partly voted for I was a
soldier our guys were on the start line
we were presented with a decision when
12 hours later uh you know colleagues of
mine were going former colleagues of
mine were going through their battle
procedure in order to cross the start
hly ridiculous for Parliament at that
point to turn around and say uh no stop
and I have to say I sat there in the
House of Commons and listened to T Blair
and it was the most and I kind of knew
he this man had a reputation for um how
should we say not being
necessarily as much Integrity as one
would necessary expect of a prime
minister over the period um very
convincing presentations on on other
things on this I absolutely you know I I
thought that's that's the real deal I
was convinced by his by his presentation
and the case he
made for others it has been the Egypt
imolo uh Tom Watson the redoubtable now
backbench labor Member of Parliament
just signed up for the sack blair. org
petition uh and he said for me Egypt was
the last STW by which he meant Mr
Blair's uh apparent blank check to the
military Juna uh in Egypt and the mass
killings uh that they engaged in uh his
apparent endorsement at the criminal
ization of the party that actually won
the last perhaps only ever democratic
election in Egypt four of them uh yes uh
now he uh he he's right on site uh with
uh General CC and indeed dallar Campbell
his former spin doctor is now doing a
bit of spin doctoring for them God help
them uh you very courageously were uh
right in uh close up to the action uh in
the squares in Cairo and wrote very
powerfully uh about it again were you
surprised that Mr Blair's uh stand or is
this just compound it all for you that's
kind his position to be fair to him has
been highly consistent since the Chicago
speech and this Doctrine um that he that
uh of this interventionist doctrine that
he produced then uh it has been an utter
disaster wherever it's been implemented
and we are uh giving the authority uh
for powers like China than to intervene
in Africa in years to come when they see
their interests uh being uh upset by
Africans who will eventually get fed up
with uh the amount of occupation of
their assets and their countries that
China will effectively have achieved by
then so we're going down a pretty
dangerous road with this uh
responsibility to protect Doctrine by
them because it we're St into an
international law gray area and it' be
infinitely better to rely on the clear
international law that be produced by
United Nations security Council
resolutions and when we've departed from
it um we now have uh position where
Russia quite rightly is is takes
exception to Western exceptionalism
you've now got a terribly divided
society and Egypt and uh the
consequences of which we're going to we
we now we'll have to have to see but I
can't make things any better sentencing
th thousands of people to death and
holding 25,000 people uh in in in
custody who not very long ago commanded
a mandate and I think in about four
elections they were on the uh on on The
Winning Side Parliament the president
say the Constitution that's at least
three yeah uh chrisen blunt I know you
have another important engagement in the
Guild Hall thanks for squeezing in the
Sputnik coming up after the break it's
Her Excellency Alysia Castro ambassador
of Argentina to the court of St James
doesn't get much more distinguished than
that we'll be right back
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welcome back to Sputnik 32 years ago a
lot of men left their guts on goose
green to prove How brave a soldier
Margaret Thatcher was and hundreds of
Argentine Sailors were sent to a watery
grave shot in the back on the Bel Grano
as they were leaving The War Zone on
Margaret Thatcher's personal order the
UK taxpayer has expended many billions
of pounds in defense of a population
smaller than the English Village of
nether walop living 8,000 mil from the
country they call their own ours
Britain's isolation in Latin America is
virtually complete and very expensive
yet still this Preposterous appendage of
British colonialism continues it's
Gilbert and Sullivan's fars at our
expense and in every sense G went out to
listen to what the people had to say
about this farce a lot of people got
loose lost their life and a lot of money
was spent England got a bit of political
Kudos or War Kudos as you might say
Argentina got a bloody knows so that
that's how it that's how that's how it
read when there's no oil there's no
diamonds there's nothing there no it's
just piece of rock it's a piece of rock
but they will fight for it that's the
British for you they should be back kid
trying to sort out here instead of over
there 9,000 miles away you know share
it's all British hurry up and get get
together and share England don't give
back they don't give back if they got it
they're not going to give it back it's
nearer to them so really it should
them really come be serious so what are
they doing there well our next guest is
one of Argentina's crack diplomats
having previously been a close comrade
of the late president Hugo Chavez of
Venezuela one of Argentina's greatest
friends and I'm pleased to say she joins
us now Her Excellency Ambassador Alysia
Castro Ambassador thanks for joining us
you must be pretty uh gratified pleased
with what you heard there on London
streets it's it's really very
interesting but it's not a surprise for
me it doesn't come as a surprise Mr
Galloway because we normally meet many
people and many organizations that not
only were at the time against the war
because the war as you know it had been
um organized and decided by a a a
criminal Juna that by that time ruled
our country and that would already was
killing people in our own country the
30,000 desos disappeared people at the
time so it was a a detector ship that
was using the war as an excuse to and an
stun to remain in power so it was for a
very for the worst of of reasons that
they went there for the for the war and
it's striking that uh the government of
the United Kingdom that did negotiate
from
1967 to
1982 until the war time with this
dictatorship is nowadays not uh wanting
and not able to have a dialogue a proper
dialogue with a democratic and popular
government of Christina
Fernand it is odd because even Mrs Tater
was prepared to discuss at least perhaps
endlessly discuss maybe never agree but
she never pretended she wasn't ready to
discuss the sovereignty claim and the
possibility of shared sovereignty I in
the British Parliament have been arguing
for a sharing of sovereignty over the
malvinas and perhaps more importantly
its surrounding Waters because one of
the Vox pops was wrong there when he
said there's no diamonds and no oil uh I
don't know about diamonds but there's
plenty of oil in them there sees
uh is shared sovereignty something that
the democratic government of Argentina
would discuss with the British there
were it was discussed in the past as we
said between 60 1966 and 1982 there were
many options discussed and their
documents drafted I'm sure that the
inhabitants of the islands would have a
much better way of life that what they
have today in first place as you as you
mentioned it there is oil
but they they are doing exploration
which is uh clandestine because under
Argentine law and under the United
Nations while the case is being dealt in
the de colonization committee you cannot
uh do unilateral things not one
government or the other and they are uh
exploring and try to exploit their
hydrocarbons and um it isn't feasible
without a proper link with the continent
without a proper Logistics without
organization if uh Argentina would be
exercising its sovereignty they could
exploit their hydrocarbons and even own
the profits as any of the others
provinces in Argentina
do they would have a a better life in
terms of communications not only with
Mainland Argentina but with the rest of
the world they would enjoy our
universities that are very good and
totally free they would enjoy a free
health care system and um they would
have a very happy life as the quarter
million of British descendants that live
in Mainland Argentina do you know that
we are we are most prob probably the the
the most angile country in Latin America
arguably and uh we have the largest uh
British descendants community and we
even have the largest Welsh community
apart from Wales and they they even
speak they even speak perfect Welsh and
um I went to meet um the authorities of
of Wales and Minister Carwin Jones told
me that he sends his official documents
to be translated from English to to
Welsh to a
Patagonia and we are going in the in the
next days with the governor of tuut the
province in in Argentina in the south of
Argentina where these um communities
live and we are going to organize joint
celebrations for the 150 years
anniversary of the Welsh settlement in
Argentina you even have a a huge Irish
origin Community the most famous of whom
is of course the great CH gavara yes he
was gar Lynch his family was gar Lynch
of course so what's not to love why
would they why do they want to stay with
their sheep on this Rocky uh outcrop
claiming to be British even though uh
Britain is uh more than 8,000 miles away
well they are British and they have the
right to be
British and uh we don't have anything
against it they can't being going on
being British they are British but the
territory in which they live is not this
is not this this this has nothing to do
and there is no conf conflict or
controversy with the inhabitants of the
islands but of course with the
government of the United Kingdom that
should be uh talking and negotiating
with with Argentina I think that United
Kingdom government uh wants to remain in
that geost strategical political place
in in the South Atlantic in the middle
of two oceans that was what driven
Englishmen in in the 18th century to try
to find a place there and to inst all
the their army and they have a huge
military
base um they have a base of um almost uh
2,000
soldiers um for a population of less
than 3,000 people so it's the most
militarized area in the planet there's a
un c24 taking place as we speak uh are
these negotiations going anywhere well
today exactly in the while we are
talking here we it's um the meeting of
the decolonization Committee in the
United Nations as you said and uh I'm
sure the the come out will be the
42nd
resolution uh urging both countries to
resume negotiations how are you uh
received here I'll tell you why I ask
two of the most popular footballers ever
uh in this country oie illes and Ricky
Villa played for Tottenham Hots Spar in
England at the time of the war and yet
everybody loved them and loves them
still partly because they were very good
players also because they're very fine
people uh but there was never any hatred
of Argentina in this country uh how you
received as you go about I mean you meet
the queen you meet the British ministers
and you meet the public how are you
received well we very recently had a um
a conference in in our house with Ricky
V and oais and I could appreciate what
you're saying the the love of British
people and of course football is a
shared passion of of English and and and
Argentine people and uh those were the
first football players that came from
Latin America making a difference of
course and um I didn't know that the
goal of of Ricky V is still remember of
the one of the forgettable one of the
most unforgettable Cup Final goals ever
so um you're a Spur no no but uh I like
good football and sports were a very
fine team at that time and um but
there's nothing this as as we said
before this has nothing to do with
people there there's
are there's a a quarter million of
British descendants in living in
Argentina and nobody's had or had ever
been hostile to to Eng English people I
mean this was the the will of the two
governments at the time the the military
Jun and and margar thater who wanted
that was a kind of a military Jun too
but now we both have democratic
governments how are that that is why
it's not understandable that they don't
and and you know uh the United Kingdom
government is isolated in this matter
because it's all the International
Community which no exception that is
asking to uh resume negotiations and
have a proper dialogue between two
Sovereign Nations so they are not only
isolated in the non-resp the the
resolutions of the United Nations but
the call of of all the International
Community who can survive without dial
dialogue nobody can and it's an
expensive business to uh to do your
business through helicopters and nuclear
submarines and so on especially when we
live in a country that has many other
pressing uh need for that uh money uh
just finally then uh how optimistic are
you that things might change I am
optimistic I am optimistic I know that
sooner or later Argentina will exercise
the sovereignty over the malvinas
islands uh I work and my job and I thank
you and everyone that is uh asking for
dialogue is to make though that time
shorter Ambassador Alysia Castro thank
you very much thank for coming on board
the than you both very much thank
you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gri well
the people on Twitter and Facebook are
unanimous when it comes to Tony Blair
they actually want more than him being
sacked uh Petty Grant says Blair should
be dragged Kicking and Screaming to the
hake he is no better than any other mass
murderer and Donald McRonald says apart
from Blair's totally inexplicable
appointment as peace Envoy the Middle
East is going up in Flames well done
Tony I think this is an idea whose Time
Has Come uh I'd be surprised if uh in a
few weeks time Mr Blair is still the
Middle East peace and boy well in
Argentina we have a different matter
Michael bsby jokes that while looking
where they are in the South Atlant just
off the coast of Argentina they're
obviously British but people like Leo
McDonald say no way they've never been
under Argentina rule they will always
remain British well they've never been
uh under Argentina because Argentina was
itself colonized at the time the British
colonized the malvinas it's time for
some political organization to uh must
up the courage to say look actually we
we can't even exploit the oil and gas
off the forlands as long as this
situation uh continues to persist so
it's in everybody's interest and that's
all for this week which unfortunately
means that's the end of the show do
please keep in touch with us on Twitter
at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook you can
like us on Sputnik on Russia today it's
goodbye from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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oh
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